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Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 1/24/2007 19:59:05 play online chess	Subject: How do you beat the Grunfeld Part 2 Message: I think I might have another line to try out, an obscure one(so far as I know) in the Classical Exchange line: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 (I've always thought this Exchange line is the most natural...) 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 ... and now, instead of the popular 7.Bc4 and 7.Nf3 lines, try 7.f4!? b Call the main lines a big centre? Now this, this is a big centre! :-)) It has been played on GK several times, and not with huge success for the White side. But no games appear in the 1900+ database, and the ones that appear in the general database very quickly depart from the two examples I know of. These two games, one dating from 1924 (!), the other from the 1982 Olympiad, constitute the only theory I've been able to find on the line. But they look impressive! I will include them in my nest posting... Cheers, Ion
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 1/25/2007 01:16:38 play online chess	As promised 2 illustrative games: Message: Seitz vs Steiner 1924 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.f4!? c5!? A thematic response 8.Be3 Qa5 9.Kf2! 0-0 {!? Not sure what the consequences of 10...Qxc3 are. Maybe 10...Qxc3 11.Rc1 Qb2+ 12.Rc2 Qb4 (or Qb6) 13.Rxc5} 10.Qb3 cxd4 11.cxd4 Nd7 12.Be2 Nc5 13.Qb1 Ne6 14.Nf3 f4 15.e5 Nc7 Dunno about you, but I reckon White's centre looks imposing... 16.Rc1 b5 17.Rc5 a6 18.a4 Rb8 19.axb5 Qb6 20.Qa2+ e6 Now Black's Q-side is under enormous pressure as well! 21.d5 exd5 22.Rxd5 Qb7 23.Rc5+ Kh8 24.bxa6 Qb6 25.Rb5 Qxb5 Something had to give... Black is the equivalent of a piece down, but hopes his collection of pieces will be active enough to provide counterplay... 26.Bxb5 Rxb5 27.Ng5 Nd5 28.a7 Bb7 29.a8=Q Bxa8 30.Qxa8 h6 {After 30...Rxa8 31.Rxa8+ Bf8 32.Rxf8+ Kg7 33.Rf7+ Kg8 34.Rxh7 White has 2 extra pawns as well as the bishop.} 31.Nf7+ Kg8 32.Nxh6+ {An odd looking move. I guess the intention is 32...Bxh6 33.Qc6, threatening the BRb5 and the g6 square. 33...Rb2+ transfers the WQ's attention to the BNd5: 34.Kf3 Ne7 35.Qe6+ etc} 32...Kh7 33.Qc6 Rb2+ 34.Kf3 1-0 In that game, White established a very powerful centre,then crushed Black's q-side, finally obtaining a decisive material advantage. Black never really seemed to be in the game. More drastic is the following more recent game (only a quarter of a century old...) White: Mungyereza vs Black: Diaz (Olympiad 1982) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.f4!? 7...0-0 8.Nf3 c5 9.Be2 Qc7 10.0-0 Rd8 11.Be3 e6 12.Rc1 f5 13.e5 b6 14.Bc4 h6 15.Qb3 Qe7 16.d5 {Here we go, here we go, here we go. Here we go, here we go, here we go!} 16...Kh7 17.Rfd1 exd5 18.Bxd5 Bb7 19.Bxb7 Rxd1+ 20.Rxd1 Qxb7 21.Rd8 g5 {Air...need...air...Can't...(gasp! choke)...breathe...} 22.Qg8+ Kg6 23.Rd6+ Kh5 24.Qe8+ Kg4 25.Kf2 1-0 Black can avert the immediate mate only by giving up his Q. Well, White has a lot of fun with this line! Is there any later theory on it? Cheers, Ion
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 1/25/2007 13:08:11 play online chess	Message: I found another game in 2000: 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4 g6 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.f4 c5 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.e5 Be6 10.Be2 cxd4 11.Nxd4 Nxd4 12.cxd4 O-O 13.O-O Qd7 14.Be3 Rac8 15.d5 Qxd5 16.Qxd5 Bxd5 17.Bxa7 Rc2 18.Bf3 Bxf3 19.Rxf3 Ra8 20.Rf2 Rc3 21.Bd4 Rd3 22.Bc5 e6 23.Rb2 Rd5 24.Bd6 Rxd6 0-1
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 1/25/2007 13:09:31 play online chess	Message: this is a very attacking variation simular to the 4 pawns attack in the KI. Is this line a side variation of the 4 pawns attack?
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 1/26/2007 00:23:54 play online chess	No... Message: ... Apart from anything else, The 4-Pawns can't be got from a Grunfeld; and I don't think this 7.f4 line can be arrived at via a King's Indian. But maybe the type of game is similar, though it doesn't look it to my mind. I've played quite a few 4-Pawns Attacks (OTB, years ago), and Black had to play very passively to get crushed in the same manner as the 2 games posted earlier. After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg2 4.e4 d6 5.f4 0-0 6.Nf3 c5 7.d5 (7.Be2 is equally possible, but I prefer the pawn advance) 7...e6 8.Be2 (In my last 4-Pawns Attack on GK I played 8.exd5 and got a pretty reasonable game out of it) 8...exd5 Whereupon White can play any of 9.exd5, 9.cxd5 or even 9.e5 (The Gunderam Attack). None of these seems to lead to the kind of game the seemingly analogous line in the Grunfeld offers. Thanks for submitting the 2000 game, sf115. It is handy to see what resources Black has available, and maybe what White has to avoid. But if there isn't much else forthcoming, you might have virgin territory to make your explorations and develop your own theory of the opening. Try them out.
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 1/26/2007 12:55:00 play online chess	Message: why can't a KI transpose into a Grunfeld? All you do is play a KI and play d4 about move 10 and it goes into a weird side-variation of the KI.
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 1/27/2007 01:23:40 play online chess	I was being a bit more specific ... Message: ... Than a general remark that a KI can't transpose into a Grunfeld, but it is true that it's very unlikely to do so. If instead of 3...d5 Black plays 3.Bg7, White's 4.e4 is going to discourage thoughts of ...d5 for a long time to come. If White plays some move other than 4.e4, then 4...d5 is still a consideration. I guess there can be positions early on that might be labelled either way. I have a feeling that if Black doesn't play ...d5 at move 3, or maybe 4, he probably won't want to for the time being. I was being specific to the 7.f4 version of the Grunfeld, and the 4-Pawns Attack in the KI. It seemed to me they led to different kinds of games, but I could be wrong about that. Only by playing games with these openings might one find out for sure. By move 10, maybe there will be some convergence between KI and Grunfeld if Black gets in ...d5. I don't know. My own experience suggests ...d5 rarely comes into consideration, but my experience is not what you would call vast.
Posted by premium_steve www6conf.org 1/27/2007 10:30:04 play online chess	Message: This looks like a fun idea to me. :) I love playing with a big center (especially one supported with f4) and breaking through black's position with central pawns. at the same time, development looks fairly quick and natural for white. so it's not like he's really breaking any opening rules. i'd worry a bit about an attack black can build up on d4, but hopefully white can defend that or find his own attacking chances somewhere else with his pieces. thanks for those games and your analysis, ionadowman. :) i think i'll try this against a grunfeld player next time i play him..... and if we play this line, i'll post the game here. It might not be very good quality, considering my ability, but who knows...
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 1/27/2007 16:04:11 play online chess	Finally had a look at the 2000 game... Message: ... that sf115 submitted. Rather an abrupt finish: a blunder that lost a piece in a position White need not have lost. Perhaps one or two of his earlier decisions might be called into question as well, but at any rate, it doesn't demonstrate any particular downside to the 7.f4 line. Good on you premium_steve, and good luck! I would be very interested to see how you get on. Cheers, Ion
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 1/28/2007 08:02:23 play online chess	Message: I would be interested to!!! sf115
Posted by wote www6conf.org 1/28/2007 09:20:52 play online chess	Message: [Event "Gyor"] [Site "Gyor"] [Date "1924.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "Seitz, Jakob Adolf"] [Black "Steiner, Lajos"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "D85"] [PlyCount "67"] [EventDate "1924.??.??"] [EventType "tourn"] [EventRounds "14"] [EventCountry "HUN"] [Source "ChessBase"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. f4 c5 8. Be3 Qa5 9. Kf2 O-O 10. Qb3 cxd4 11. cxd4 Nd7 12. Be2 Nc5 13. Qb1 Ne6 14. Nf3 f5 15. e5 Nc7 16. Rc1 b5 17. Rc5 a6 18. a4 Rb8 19. axb5 Qb6 20. Qa2+ e6 21. d5 exd5 22. Rxd5 Qb7 23. Rc5+ Kh8 24. bxa6 Qb6 25. Rb5 Qxb5 26. Bxb5 Rxb5 27. Ng5 Nd5 28. a7 Bb7 29. a8=Q Bxa8 30. Qxa8 h6 31. Nf7+ Kg8 32. Nxh6+ Kh7 33. Qc6 Rb2+ 34. Kf3 1-0 [Event "ESP-ch"] [Site "Barcelona"] [Date "2000.08.18"] [Round "1"] [White "Cortes Ventura, Joaquim"] [Black "Fernandez Garcia, Jose Luis"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "D85"] [WhiteElo "2075"] [BlackElo "2454"] [PlyCount "46"] [EventDate "2000.08.18"] [EventType "swiss"] [EventRounds "9"] [EventCountry "ESP"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "2000.09.14"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. f4 c5 8. Nf3 Nc6 9. d5 Bxc3+ 10. Bd2 Bxa1 11. Qxa1 Nd4 12. Nxd4 cxd4 13. Qxd4 f6 14. Bc4 Bd7 15. Qd3 Rc8 16. O-O O-O 17. h4 Qb6+ 18. Be3 Qb4 19. Bb3 Bb5 20. d6+ Kg7 21. Qd5 Bxf1 22. e5 Bc4 23. exf6+ exf6 0-1 [Event "Arroio do Silva CC-ch"] [Site "Arroio do Silva"] [Date "1997.12.??"] [Round "7"] [White "Leonardelli, Ivanio"] [Black "Vonk, Rogerio"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [ECO "D85"] [PlyCount "141"] [EventDate "1997.??.??"] [EventType "tourn"] [EventRounds "9"] [EventCountry "BRA"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "2002.11.25"] 1. c4 Nf6 2. d4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. f4 O-O 8. Nf3 c5 9. Be2 Nc6 10. e5 cxd4 11. cxd4 Kh8 12. O-O Qd5 13. Be3 b6 14. Qd2 Bb7 15. Rac1 Na5 16. Rc7 Rfc8 17. Rfc1 Rxc7 18. Rxc7 Qd8 19. Qc2 Rc8 20. Rxc8 Qxc8 21. Qxc8+ Bxc8 22. Ng5 Kg8 23. Ne4 Bb7 24. Nc3 e6 25. Nb5 Bd5 26. Nxa7 Bxa2 27. Nc8 Bc4 28. Kf2 Bxe2 29. Kxe2 b5 30. Kd3 Bf8 31. Na7 b4 32. Nb5 f6 33. Nd6 Be7 34. Bd2 fxe5 35. dxe5 Nc6 36. Kc4 g5 37. g3 gxf4 38. gxf4 Kg7 39. Kc5 b3 40. Bc1 Na5 41. Bb2 Kg6 42. Kb5 Bd8 43. Ka4 Kh5 44. Ka3 Kg4 45. Bc3 Kxf4 46. Bxa5 Bxa5 47. Kxb3 Bc7 48. Kc2 Kxe5 49. Nb5 Bb6 50. Kd3 Kf4 51. Ke2 Bg1 52. Nc7 e5 53. Nd5+ Kf5 54. h3 Kg5 55. Kf1 Bd4 56. Kg2 Kh4 57. Nf6 h6 58. Ng4 e4 59. Nxh6 Kg5 60. Ng4 Kf4 61. Kf1 Kf3 62. Nh2+ Kg3 63. Ng4 Kxh3 64. Nf2+ Bxf2 65. Kxf2 Kg4 66. Ke3 Kf5 67. Ke2 Kf4 68. Kf2 e3+ 69. Ke2 Ke4 70. Ke1 Kd3 71. Kd1 1/2-1/2 [Event "Lloret del Mar op"] [Site "Lloret del Mar"] [Date "1997.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "Barcelo Pujadas, Pedro Jose"] [Black "Sanchez Corujo, Jose Ignacio"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "D85"] [WhiteElo "2255"] [BlackElo "2270"] [PlyCount "140"] [EventDate "1997.??.??"] [EventType "swiss"] [EventRounds "9"] [EventCountry "ESP"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "2002.11.25"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. f4 c5 8. e5 cxd4 9. Qxd4 O-O 10. Ba3 Nc6 11. Qxd8 Rxd8 12. Bb5 Bd7 13. Be2 Rac8 14. Nf3 Bf8 15. Nd4 Na5 16. Rc1 Nc4 17. Bxc4 Rxc4 18. h3 Rdc8 19. Kd2 Ra4 20. Bb2 Rxa2 21. Kc2 e6 22. Ra1 Rxa1 23. Rxa1 a6 24. Ba3 Bc6 25. Bxf8 Kxf8 26. g3 Ke7 27. Kd3 Bd5 28. Ra4 Bg2 29. h4 f6 30. exf6+ Kxf6 31. g4 Bf1+ 32. Kd2 Bg2 33. g5+ Ke7 34. Rb4 b5 35. Rb1 Kd6 36. Re1 Bd5 37. Ra1 Bb7 38. Re1 Re8 39. f5 e5 40. f6 Rf8 41. Ne2 Bd5 42. Ng3 Rf7 43. Ra1 Ra7 44. h5 a5 45. Ke3 a4 46. Ra3 Rc7 47. hxg6 hxg6 48. Ne4+ Bxe4 49. Kxe4 Rc4+ 50. Kf3 Ke6 51. Ke3 Rg4 52. Ra1 Rxg5 53. Rb1 Kxf6 54. Rxb5 Rg4 55. Ra5 Rf4 56. Kd3 g5 57. c4 a3 58. c5 Ke6 59. c6 Kd6 60. c7 Kxc7 61. Rxe5 Ra4 62. Re1 a2 63. Ra1 Kd6 64. Kc3 g4 65. Kb3 Ra7 66. Kb2 Ke5 67. Re1+ Kf4 68. Ka1 g3 69. Re8 Ra5 70. Rf8+ Rf5 0-1 [Event "Malgrat del Mar op"] [Site "Malgrat del Mar"] [Date "1997.03.21"] [Round "2"] [White "Barcelo Presas, Tomas"] [Black "Ramirez Garcia, Lluis"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "D85"] [WhiteElo "1960"] [BlackElo "1880"] [PlyCount "63"] [EventDate "1997.??.??"] [EventType "swiss"] [EventRounds "9"] [EventCountry "ESP"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "2002.11.25"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. f4 c5 8. e5 O-O 9. d5 Bf5 10. c4 Qa5+ 11. Bd2 Qa3 12. Qb3 Qxb3 13. axb3 Na6 14. Ne2 Nb4 15. Bxb4 cxb4 16. Nd4 Be4 17. Kd2 Bh6 18. Ke3 Bf5 19. Nxf5 gxf5 20. Be2 Kh8 21. Ra4 a5 22. Bf3 Ra7 23. Rha1 b6 24. Rc1 Rc8 25. Rca1 Kg8 26. Rxb4 Rb8 27. Rb5 Rab7 28. d6 Rd7 29. dxe7 Rxe7 30. c5 f6 31. Bd5+ Kh8 32. e6 1-0 [Event "Gijon op"] [Site "Gijon"] [Date "2002.??.??"] [Round "8"] [White "Riera Menendez, Marcos"] [Black "Martinez Martinez, Julio Alberto"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "D85"] [PlyCount "55"] [EventDate "2002.04.??"] [EventType "swiss"] [EventRounds "9"] [EventCountry "ESP"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "2002.11.25"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. f4 c5 8. Be3 Qa5 9. Nf3 Qxc3+ 10. Bd2 Qb2 11. Rb1 Qxa2 12. Qc1 Qe6 13. Ng5 Qg4 14. Be2 Qh4+ 15. g3 Qh6 16. f5 Bxd4 17. Ne6 Qh3 18. Nxd4 b6 19. Bf3 Nd7 20. Bf4 cxd4 21. Qc6 Bb7 22. Qxb7 Rd8 23. Bc7 O-O 24. Bxd8 Rxd8 25. Qc7 Qh6 26. Qxd8+ Kg7 27. Qxd7 Qe3+ 28. Be2 1-0 [Event "Gyor"] [Site "Gyor"] [Date "1924.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "Seitz, Jakob Adolf"] [Black "Steiner, Lajos"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "D85"] [PlyCount "67"] [EventDate "1924.??.??"] [EventType "tourn"] [EventRounds "14"] [EventCountry "HUN"] [Source "ChessBase"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. f4 c5 8. Be3 Qa5 9. Kf2 O-O 10. Qb3 cxd4 11. cxd4 Nd7 12. Be2 Nc5 13. Qb1 Ne6 14. Nf3 f5 15. e5 Nc7 16. Rc1 b5 17. Rc5 a6 18. a4 Rb8 19. axb5 Qb6 20. Qa2+ e6 21. d5 exd5 22. Rxd5 Qb7 23. Rc5+ Kh8 24. bxa6 Qb6 25. Rb5 Qxb5 26. Bxb5 Rxb5 27. Ng5 Nd5 28. a7 Bb7 29. a8=Q Bxa8 30. Qxa8 h6 31. Nf7+ Kg8 32. Nxh6+ Kh7 33. Qc6 Rb2+ 34. Kf3 1-0
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 1/28/2007 23:03:11 play online chess	Thanks a lot, wote! Message: Plenty of food for thought there. Those Spanish brevities are fun, aren't they? The Barcelo-Ramirez game in particular just goes to show how how much of a squash Black can get into if he lets White keep his big centre unchallenged. He looked like a possum caught in the headlights and ended as roadkill. ;-))
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 1/29/2007 12:28:48 play online chess	Message: but any good player would challenge white's center when he (or she) had a 4 pawn center.
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 2/04/2007 03:55:48 play online chess	Message: These games are quite old. Only one game is after 1997
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 2/04/2007 23:42:58 play online chess	Two, it seems ... Message: ... One in 2000, another in 2002. Quite a few in 1997.
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 2/06/2007 12:16:57 play online chess	Message: oops, I guess that the games are quite modern. do you think that it is stupid for black not to challenge white's pawn center? wouldn't any player challenge it? sf115
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 2/06/2007 17:51:44 play online chess	I've got a game on... Message: ... with this line. Perhaps we can discuss it when it's finished. I think it might be of theoretical interest... Cheers, Ion
Posted by premium_steve www6conf.org 2/10/2007 13:35:10 play online chess	Message: i don't know if i really like this line any more for white.... :( i think i'm gonna try this one instead >> 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.h4
Posted by swazzer www6conf.org 2/11/2007 06:48:43 play online chess	Message: anyone here?
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 2/11/2007 09:02:26 play online chess	Message: what is the point behind 4. h4?
Posted by premium_steve www6conf.org 2/11/2007 19:07:44 play online chess	Message: Ummm....I'm not sure exactly. I'm planning on looking into it a bit more. I guess white's not worrying so much about his pawn structure or development, hoping the wing pawn thrust will lead to an attack on the kingside or an open rook file that he can take advantage of. Of course, black isn't obligated to castle on the kingside. Maybe there are ways for black to make h4 look silly. I really like the idea, at least. I like to try a similar h4 push in king's indian games. I wish i could look at positions and figure them out better for myself. there was one line with this move recommended by an IM in a video lecture i saw recently: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.h4 Bg7 (4...h5, 4...c6, 4...c5 or maybe 4...Bf5 would be good alternatives) 5.h5 Nxh5 (gxh5 ruins the pawn structure and makes kingside castling very risky) And now he says 6.Nxd5 is good for white, without really explaining why. I found that strange because 6...c6 forces the knight to move away and then the d4-pawn hangs. A move like 7.Qa4 doesn't help. The d4-pawn still hangs, And, to me, black looks much better here. Maybe i'm missing something.
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 2/11/2007 20:30:26 play online chess	The position reached in this line is... Message: w 6.Nxd5 doesn't look very good, as premium_steve observes, but what about 6.cxd5!? For the moment, White has exchanged an extreme flank pawn for a centre one - not a bad bargain. The d5 pawn will probably be exchanged off for the Black c-pawn, but it still looks like a good deal to me. Against that, we have to ask ourselves where the WK will fetch up: 0-0, 0-0-0, or uncastled. Not easy to answer. It could turn out to be quite an intersting sort of game. Cheers, Ion
Posted by raskerino www6conf.org 2/12/2007 15:39:53 play online chess	Message: there is a kind of similar line to the one ionadown is talking about: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bg5 Bg7!? (4... Ne4 is more common) 5.Bxf6 Bxf6 6.cxd5 (6.Nxd5 is also possible) c6! 7.dxc6 (e4 is more critical) Bxd4 8.cxb7 Bxb7 where white has to be quite careful against the two bishops, in Lyrberg-Krieman the game continued: 9.Qa4+ Nc6 10.e3 Qb6!? 11.Bb5 Bxc3+ 12.bxc3 a6 13.Bd3 Qb2 14.Rb1 Qxc3+ 15.Ke2 Rd8 16.Qc2 Qxc2+ 17.Bxc2 Na5 18.Nf3 0-0 =, of course this is quite abstract but maybe the idea is still good. In the line given: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.h4?! Bg7 (I would like to add 4... h6 to the list of possibilities allowing 5.h5 g5- however maybe h5 isn't a big threat) 5.h5 Nxh5 6.cxd5 c6??! where the main ideas that I see for white are Qb3, e4 and dxc6. Whil I'm not sure this is good, black has not sacked a pawn for quite a similar position. Davies recommends a different panacea with 4... c5!? he also mentions 4... c6 as reasonable and safe and shows a game in which 4... dxc4 is quite miserable. He also shuts down my 4... h6 idea. He argues that after 5.h5 Nxh5 (in the line above) 6.cxd5 black should try 6... Nf6 (he also says white is much better against my 6... c6) 7.e4 c6 8.dxc6 bxc6 where white is better, see Seres-Dembo 2001. I think black should be good with c5 and fine with c6, but this definitely demands an accurate response!
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 2/17/2007 00:32:50 play online chess	Well, the latest example from GK... Message: ... Led to a White win, but not at all a convincing advertisement for this 7.f4 line. White:ionadowman Black:raskerino 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.f4!? c5 8.Be3 *(one of several options played in the above games) 8...Nc6! (In the published games posted earlier, Black's invariable response has been 8...Qa5. I can't see anything wrong with raskerino's thematic alternative.) 9.d5!? ... (going for the exchange sac - an idea similar to that played in the standard Exchange Variation) 9...Bxc3+ 10.Kf2 Nd4! (There are two ways of testing a sacrifice: acceptance and declining. After 10...Bxa1 11.Qxa1 Nd4 12.Bxd4 cxd4 13.Qxd4 0-0 White still has to prove that he's got enough attack for the exchange. After 10...Nd4, has White even enough for the pawn? And where should the rook go?) 11.Rb1 ... (Continuing to offer the rook is out of the question, but 11.Rc1 might be equally playable. ) 11...0-0 12.Ne2 Bg4 13.Qd3 (White can only seek relief in exchanges...) 13...Bxe2 14.Qxc3 Bxf1 15.Rxf1 b6 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.Qxd4 (White has got his pawn back, and this major piece ending looks pretty even to me. White's central pawn phalanx looks menacing, and ought soon to yield a passed pawn. But Black q-side majority, quiescent now, is a factor not to be ignored. One thing for sure: a pure pawn ending is not in White's interests!) 17...Rac8 18.Rbc1 Qd7 19.e5 Rfd8 20.Rxc8 (This looks counter-intuitive, I admit, and I didn't like playing it. But it seems the only good way of forcing the creation of a passed pawn on the d-file, which seemed more important than the open file) 20...Rxc8 21.Rd1 Rc2+ 22.Rd2 Rxd2 23.Qxd2 g5? (At this point I felt that the Q ending offered the best chances of getting something out of the position. All the same, the position is probably too close to call after White's 23rd. Black's response came as a big surprise. Clearly he wants to undermine the White centre phalanx. If White plays 24.fxg5? then ...Qf5+ looks good for Black.) 24.d6 exd6 25.exd6 gxf4 26.Qxf4 Qe6 27.g4! (I like this move: offers an endgame sac of a pawn - with check - at the same time clearing the d-pawn's path for the moment, and providing the WK with a covered approach towards the Black position) 27...Qxa2+ (Now, if White got this wrong, there's nothing to impede Black's Q-side advance!) 28.Kg3 Qb3+ 29.Kh4 Qe6 30.Qd2... (After a bit of thought, this seemed preferable to the obvious 30.Qd4 as it covers e1 and h6. White has less to fear from a Q check at f6, so was prepared to leave that square uncovered.)* 30...Qf6+ *(30...Qd7 was worth a look, too)* 31.g5 Qd8 32.d7 Kf8 *(Understandable, but the king is too easily chased off. Black had to pin his hopes on his own passed pawns here, with 32...a5 or 32...b5. Here's how 32...a5 might have gone: 33.Kh5 {to prevent ...h6 after Qd6} a4 34.Qd6 a3 35.Kh6 a2 36.Qf6 Qf8+ 37.Kh5 a1=Q 38.Qxa1 Qd8 {what about 38...Qd6 then, hoping for a perpetual after 39.Qa8+ Kg7 40.d8=Q} 39.Qd4 b5 (Torpedo Two) 40.Qd6 b4 41.Kh6 b3 42.Qf6 Qf8+ 43.Kh5 b2 44.d8=Q! b1=Q 45.Qh8+ Kxh8 46.Qxf8#. Or 32...b5 33.Kh5 b4 34.Qd6 b3 35.Qc6 b2 36.Qc8 ... At any rate, Black could have run it pretty close!)* 33.Qd6+ Kg8 34.Kh5 f6 35.Qe6 1-0 Well, I lucked into a win - not what we really wanted from this line!
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 2/17/2007 04:23:12 play online chess	Message: This is an interesting game. It looks as though black has a small advantage early on but this doesn't count for much. It should have been a draw but black blundered late in the game.
Posted by ccmcacollister www6conf.org 2/17/2007 09:49:49 play online chess	That h-pawn attack position Message: looks a little scary for BL after the cd5 given by ionadowman . Perhaps bl must challenge immediately with ...c6. Then I'm not sure how it goes. But lucky it is his move, giving a tempo to work with or it looks rather bindish of bl k-side if WT could immediately play e4/Bg5/Qd2. There if ....h6 the Be3 retreat is available, and BL is all the looser on that wing. Of course these moves would also be thematic to an h-file attack vs ...0-0. It would seem that BL would have a hard time fighting both for his K-side, and the center .... especially with his K so close to the activity. & WT sitting poised for a timely o-o-o if the Bl king looks unsafe. Otherwise WT could walk his K somewhere like f1/f2/g2 as in some French and be happy there . Question being, what shall BL do with his Move due now. I'm not sure at the moment.
Posted by ccmcacollister www6conf.org 2/17/2007 09:52:35 play online chess	Message: Perhaps a return of ....Nf6 would figure into BL's strategy.
Posted by raskerino www6conf.org 2/17/2007 11:52:30 play online chess	Message: If anyone would like to try one of these lines against me (4.h4 or 7.f4, or for that matter anything else in the grunfeld) I'd love a game. Here's some games with 4.h4 as played by Seres who's tossed this out from time to time: White: Seres (2425) Black: Balinov (2430) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.h4 Bg7 5.h5 Nxh5 6.cxd5 c6 7.e4 Nf6 8.dxc6 0-0 9.cxb7 Bxb7 10.f3 Nc6 11.Be3 Qc7 12.Bb5 Qb6 13.Qd2 Rfd8 14.Nge2 Ba6 15.Bxc6 Qxc6 16.0-0 Ne8 17.Rfd1 Nd6 18.b3 f5 19.Nd5 Qb7 20.Bg5 Rd7 21.Nxe7+ Rxe7 22.Bxe7 Qxe7 23.e5 Rd8 24.Nf4 Nf7 25.Qa5 Bb7 26.Rac1 Bh6 27.Rc7 Qh4 28.Rxb7 Bxf4 29.Qc3 Bxe5 30.f4 Qxf4 31.Qh3 Rxd4 32.Rf1 Qe4 0-1 White: Seres (2474) Black: Blasko (2310) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.h4 h6 5.Nf3 (5.cxd5 is simply good for white Nxd5 6.e4 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Bg7 8.Be3) Bg7 6.Bf4 c6 7.e3 Qb6 8.Qd2 Ne4 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.Ne5 Nd7 11.c5 Qd8 12.Nc4 0-0 13.Be2 b6 14.cxb6 axb6 15.Qc2 c5 16.dxc5 Nxc5 17.Rd1 Qe8 18.Rxb6 Nd3+ 19.Bxd3 exd3 20.Qb1 Qc6 21.Nxa8 Qxg2 22.Rh2 d2+ 0-1 White: Seres (~2450) Black: Dembo (she has one male GM norm) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.h4 Bg7 5.h5 Nxh5 6.cxd5 Nf6 7.e4 c6 8.dxc6 bxc6 9.Be2 Ba6 10.Nf3 Qa5 11.0-0 0-0 12.Bg5 h6 13.Bh4 Bxe2 14.Qxe2 Re8 15.Rac1 Qa6 16.Qc2 Nbd7 17.e5 Nh7 18.e6 fxe6 19.Qxg6 Nhf8 20.Qg3 Qd3 21.Rfe1 Qf5 22.Ne4 Qd5 23.b3 Kh8 24.Qh3 Qf5 25.Rxc6 Qxh3 26.gxh3 Ng6 27.Bg3 Ngf8 28.Nc5 Nxc5 29.dxc5 Red8 30.Rc7 Rac8 31.Rxe7 Rxc5 32.Rxa7 Rd3 33.Kg2 Rc2 34.Re4 1-0 Aronian has played 4... c6 against this and Smyslov has played 4... c5. On the note of offbeat tries against the Grunfeld, I'd like to add 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.e3 0-0 6.b4!? with the idea of fending off ...c5 to the discussion.
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 2/17/2007 13:09:45 play online chess	Message: we've already tried a line with this idea in "how to beat the grunfeld" The line, which I think has been the best of all was 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Bg5 Ne4 6. cxd5 Nxg5 7. Nxg5 e6 8. Nf3 exd5 9. b4 0-0 10. e3 with, in my opinion, an advantage for white.
Posted by raskerino www6conf.org 2/17/2007 13:55:10 play online chess	Message: there are a couple of branches at move 5 and I think that at this point in time 5...Ne4 is under something of a cloud. But it's not because of 9.b4 which to the best of my knowledge met by 9... Bf8 stopping the minority attack cold. I'll check the other thread to see if you've found a formula against this, but I don't see white getting much against the two bishops with over advanced pawns.
Posted by buddie www6conf.org 2/18/2007 02:21:40 play online chess	You want a big centre? Message: Try this: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. g4!? dxc4 (taking the g-pawn loses the d-pawn which is more important) 5. g5 Nd5 6. e4 Nxc3 7. bxc3 and follow up with f4.
Posted by raskerino www6conf.org 2/18/2007 10:53:24 play online chess	Message: Are you planning to meet 4... Bxg4 with 5.Qb3? Anyways, back to the mainline 4... dxc4 5.g5!? (I've seen h3) Nd5 6.e4 Nb6 (why Nxc3?) 7.f4 (Davies, who I follow for many of my lines in the grunfeld- recommends 7.Be3) 7... h6!? in an attempt to exploit the many holes in white's game, or to follow the main ideas 7... Bg7 8.Be3 Nc6 9.Nf3 e6 10.Qd2 Qe7 11.Be2 Bd7 where black's okay. I like 7... h6!? though.
Posted by raskerino www6conf.org 2/18/2007 10:53:54 play online chess	Message: but yes yoy do get a massive center
Posted by ccmcacollister www6conf.org 2/18/2007 13:36:02 play online chess	Hmmmmmm .... Message: MY mistake Being;I have Only played for the Center that is in the MIDDLE of the Board! }B-)
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 2/18/2007 23:01:55 play online chess	Oh, well, that depends ... Message: ... On what you mean by "middle". E.g. you could say that the 4th and 5th ranks is the middle of the board. Or the d- and e-files. The one is like being in the middle of a river you are crossing, the other the middle of the street you are driving down. Usually we think of where these pairs of ranks and files intersect. Sometimes the 16 central squares are intended. But positions can alter cases. I've had games in which my centre was on the g-file. All my men were concentrated on the f-, g- and h-files, so you couldn't really consider the e-file (say) as my centre in any meaningful sense. Maybe we need to define terms, such as the "lateral centre", the "longitudinal centre", the "greater centre", the "centre centre", and the "eccentric centre". Here is a position from a Modern defence in which White makes a fair bid to conquer the entire lateral centre: w (Filipowicz - Ujtelky, Polanica Zdroj, 1966) :-)
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 2/20/2007 11:29:50 play online chess	Message: that is the weirdest opening postition I have ever seen!
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 2/22/2007 21:12:05 play online chess	Agreed... Message: ... the miracle was that Black survived this debacle to win the game!
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 2/23/2007 11:49:15 play online chess	no Message: white won the game according to -> www.chessgames.com
Posted by ionadowman www6conf.org 2/23/2007 20:41:59 play online chess	Oops... Message: You are right. No miracle. It's in one of my books, but I just misremembered the thing. Had Uteljky won the game, it would indeed have been miraculous, since his position is just too passive to threaten White's extended centre. Actually, the game and its result is a useful illustration of how inert play can really get you squashed... ;-)
Posted by sf115 www6conf.org 2/25/2007 07:31:36 play online chess	Message: yes I agree, it's a good example of getting squashed.
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